I do agree, but I did not like your metaphor - why not a vase of  
various flowers! :)

kj

Siterer Chris Mees <[log in to unmask]>:

>>
>>
>> Wow!   This has been a wonderful debate.  It opened up a fantastic can of
>> worms and makes it really worth being a member of ARLIS-L
>>
>> Thank you Marlene!
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> Chris Mees
>> Editor ­ designinform
>> E: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> My apologies for causing an obviously discordant note.   The majority of my
>> career as a professional librarian has been in the news business, as a news
>> librarian, which may explain why I have a very different view than most
>> librarians here.    There are a lot of whiffs of inaccuracy about Wikipedia
>> entries, and, I come from a background where you want to make sure the facts
>> are accurate before going to print.   Wikipedia does offer the  
>> opportunity to
>> verify, verify, verify before hitting the load button!
>
> I have the following posted by my desk:  ³The trouble with quotes on the
> internet is that it¹s difficult to determine whether or not they are
> genuine.  Abraham Lincoln.²    I have gotten a few perplexed looks Š told
> one student:  Lincoln tweeted this while waiting for the play to start at
> Ford¹s Theatre.
>
> I am really sorry for causing such a kerfuffle.
>
>
>
>
> Marlene A. Koenig
> Librarian
> WAAC - Virginia Tech
> 1001 Prince Street
> Alexandria, VA 22314
> 703-706-3039 (phone)
> 703-549-0532 (fax)
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> From: ARLIS/NA List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Margaret
> English
> Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 2:04 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARLIS-L] English Wikipedia anti-SOPA Blackout January 18
>
> This is an excellent observation, Cindy.
> I recall my frustrating job / volunteer search as a new Art History graduate
> student.  I found that I was competing with "the horsey set", "wives of" and
> "ladies who lunch" for low-paying, entry-level gallery positions (usually
> with no benefits).  Invariably, the competition didn't even need a salary -
> they just liked getting out of the Rosedale mansion for an afternoon, LOL.
>
> Cheers!
> Margaret
>
> On 1/19/2012 1:19 PM, Cindy Wolff wrote:
> A community where people share information is an endeavor that benefits so
> many people, but life-altering experiences shouldn¹t only go for people who
> can afford to work for free.
>
> This is an issue that surfaces from time to time that in order to secure
> that resume-enhancing internship or volunteering, it is increasingly
> becoming a hardship for those who need to work for food, rent, and clothing.
> Add the responsibility of taking care of family members, both young and old,
> on top of that, the profession runs the risk of creating a two-tier level of
> library professionals where at the top there are financially comfortable
> people getting all the good experience and later good jobs because they can
> afford to work for free, while others find meaningful careers out of their
> reach simply for needing a paycheck for their time, which is not limited to
> working in a library.
>
> Volunteers do a great service in support of institutions, but they should be
> an enhancement in the workforce, not a replacement, and I don¹t know if
> administrators care enough about the difference. Do either of those
> volunteers have a library or archival background? If not, we are sending a
> message that you don¹t need one for one of these great experiences, and many
> people have spent a lot of money on their degrees. Are we reverting back to
> an era where you have to be a ³gentleman scholar² for career advancement?
> Not very one of those is an expert in the field.
>
> But with Wikipedia, anyone can claim expertise. I think Wikipedia has
> improved the culture by calling out many amateurs with an agenda, but they
> still exist and contribute, and we get what we pay for when we look to it
> for information.
>
> I can¹t deny the fulfillment and pleasure your volunteers experience, but
> there are also people who wish they had jobs like that.
>
> Cindy Wolff
>
>
>
> From: ARLIS/NA List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Barbara A
> Mathe
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:09 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARLIS-L] English Wikipedia anti-SOPA Blackout January 18
>
>
> Dear Marlene and ARLIS folks,
>
> Forgive me for edging this conversation in another direction but this
> discussion has hit a nerve so thanks for your patience.
>
> I understand that people want and need to be paid for their work but some
> people get satisfaction sharing information with others, even without being
> paid, assuming of course, that they can afford to do so.
>
> I had a rather bitter argument with a friend of mine who confronted me
> repeatedly with the question, "Don't you think it's wrong that the Museum
> doesn't pay its volunteers and interns?" I was telling her about the
> fantastic opportunities that have come to the people who volunteer here.
> Two, in particular, have extraordinary stories.
>
> One, as a result of his work transcribing and marking up original Darwin
> manuscripts, came to find himself in deep conversation with a number of
> British scholars at a reception at Cambridge University. I know that this
> has been a transformative experience for him and that his work has been
> invaluable to the project, which is partially grant funded. I don't know his
> financial details except that he is retired and if paid at all (for example,
> if the grant paid his expenses to continue his volunteer work for a few
> weeks at Cambridge University Library), it is certainly not a living.  And I
> know he would have paid for the trip himself.  You should see his smile in
> the photograph of him standing in the garden at Down House.
>
> The other is a 77 year old writer who has spent the last five years
> cataloging and scanning nearly 3,000 images taken by Carl Lumholtz in
> Northern Mexico at the end of the 19th century. Her work will make it
> possible for us to share these images with the world and particularly to
> make them available to the indigenous groups, whose forebears are pictured
> in the photographs. And our volunteer now knows more about these images than
> anyone else and will be publishing an essay in a scholarly book about the
> photographs.  Perhaps she might be paid for that. I didn't ask. But if that
> small university press pays enough for that essay to compensate her
> financially for five years of work, they can expect a proposal from me
> tomorrow!  I know she would  certainly do it for free.
>
> Both of these individuals have made these projects major contributions of
> their lives and I was very upset by my friend's insistence asking whether or
> not it was wrong that the Museum doesn't pay our volunteers, in the context
> of these stories. I asked her if I should, on moral ground-- because we
> can't pay them-- not allow them to do the work?
>
> Another friend pointed out that I should simply have said, "but they are
> volunteers." So now I am.
>
> Wikipedia would not exist, for better and worse, but for those volunteers,
> people willing to do these things of their own volition and for their own
> reward.
>
>
>
> Barbara Mathe
> Museum Archivist and Head of Library Special Collections
> American Museum of Natural History
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: ARLIS/NA List [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Marlene Koenig
> [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 4:37 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARLIS-L] English Wikipedia anti-SOPA Blackout January 18
>
> And this is why I do not like Wikipedia .. if you write articles for
> Wikipedia or for a journal, you should be paid for it. I am the author of
> several books and a noted expert on a subject (nothing to do with art), and
> I have written numerous articles for magazines, etc. I have also contributed
> chapters to books ... I do not do this for free.
>
> Oh, I know what Wikipedia is, and if Wikipedia needs to be taken seriously,
> Jimmy Wales needs to hire experts to write the entries ... and pay them for
> their expertise.
>
> Marlene A. Koenig
> Librarian
> WAAC - Virginia Tech
> 1001 Prince Street
> Alexandria, VA 22314
> 703-706-3039 (phone)
> 703-549-0532 (fax)
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ARLIS/NA List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 3:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [ARLIS-L] English Wikipedia anti-SOPA Blackout January 18
>
> "Wikipedia needs to hire"??
>
> Dear colleague Marlene,
>
> I think you must have misunderstood something. Wikipedia is everybody that
> contribute(s). It is me and you, if you want to improve and expand the
> articles there. It is a crowd sourcing project. Nobody can hire anybody.
> That is one of the unique things about WP. I contribute to the Norwegian
> version, both at work (from time to time ...) and right now, at 9:32 p.m.
> Norwegian time I am writing about a Norwegian painter. It is important that
> librarians contribute - in my opinion, that is.
>
> I have more than once wished that there was an editorial staff, when people
> change "my" articles, but even if there isn't, I think this is a fantastic
> project and I gladly contribute, both by donating a small amount of money
> each year, and by writing and editing articles about subjects I know
> something about - or want to learn about.
>
> All the best to my colleagues "over there"
>
> Kjersti (60, not the typical wikipedian, in other words) in Trondheim
>
> Siterer Marlene Koenig <[log in to unmask]>:
>
>> Wikipedia needs to hire and pay a staff of experts to vet and write
>> material.
>>
>>
>>
>> Marlene A. Koenig
>>
>> Librarian
>>
>> WAAC - Virginia Tech
>>
>> 1001 Prince Street
>>
>> Alexandria, VA 22314
>>
>> 703-706-3039 (phone)
>>
>> 703-549-0532 (fax)
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ARLIS/NA List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Gabrielle Reed
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:51 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARLIS-L] English Wikipedia anti-SOPA Blackout January 18
>>
>>
>>
>> Our job as librarians is to teach our students how to evaluate
>> resources of all types. As librarians we all know the range in article
>> quality in wikipedia and it is our job to teach our students about
>> this. Wikipedia is still a wonderful tool in a very large toolkit we
>> give our students. The notion of blocking out wikipedia is truly
>> throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Keep the baby and improve the
> articles!
>>
>>
>>
>> Gabrielle V L Reed
>> Public Services Librarian
>> Morton R. Godine Library
>> Massachusetts College of Art and Design
>> 1-617-879-7102
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: ARLIS/NA List [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lesley A
>> Bell [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 8:53 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARLIS-L] English Wikipedia anti-SOPA Blackout January 18
>>
>> I could not disagree with you more! L
>>
>>
>>
>> Lesley A. Bell
>>
>> Visual Resources Librarian | Department of Visual Arts
>>
>> Marilyn I. Walker School of Fine and Performing Arts
>>
>> Brock University | 500 Glenridge Ave. | St. Catharines, ON L2S 3A1
>>
>> | E [log in to unmask] | T 905 688 5550 x4033 | F 905 378 5712 |
>>
>> Please consider the environment before everything else.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ARLIS/NA List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>> Marlene Koenig
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:39 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: [ARLIS-L] English Wikipedia anti-SOPA Blackout January 18
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd be happy if Wikipedia was blacked out permanently J
>>
>>
>>
>> Marlene A. Koenig
>>
>> Librarian
>>
>> WAAC - Virginia Tech
>>
>> 1001 Prince Street
>>
>> Alexandria, VA 22314
>>
>> 703-706-3039 (phone)
>>
>> 703-549-0532 (fax)
>>
>> [log in to unmask]
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about
>> joining ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send
>> administrative matters (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to
>> [log in to unmask] ARLIS-L Archives and subscription
>> maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org Questions may be addressed to list
>> owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about
>> joining ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send
>> administrative matters (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to
>> [log in to unmask] ARLIS-L Archives and subscription
>> maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org Questions may be addressed to list
>> owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about
>> joining ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send
>> administrative matters (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to
>> [log in to unmask] ARLIS-L Archives and subscription
>> maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org Questions may be addressed to list
>> owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about joining
> ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters
> (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to [log in to unmask]
> ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org
> Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about joining
> ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters
> (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to [log in to unmask]
> ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org
> Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about joining
> ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters
> (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to [log in to unmask]
> ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org
> Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about joining
> ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters
> (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to [log in to unmask]
> ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org
> Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
> --
> Margaret English
>
>
> Librarian
> Department of Art Library
> University of Toronto
> 100 St. George St. - 6th floor
> Toronto, ON.
> M5S 3G3
>
> (416) 978-5006
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about joining
> ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters
> (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to [log in to unmask]
> ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org
> Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about joining
> ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters
> (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to [log in to unmask]
> ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org
> Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about  
> joining ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send  
> administrative matters (file requests, subscription requests, etc)  
> to [log in to unmask] ARLIS-L Archives and subscription  
> maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org Questions may be addressed to  
> list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mail submissions to [log in to unmask] For information about joining ARLIS/NA see: http://www.arlisna.org/join.html Send administrative matters (file requests, subscription requests, etc) to [log in to unmask] ARLIS-L Archives and subscription maintenance: http://lsv.arlisna.org Questions may be addressed to list owner (Judy Dyki) at: [log in to unmask]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~